Curse

AcousticMeanie · Mar 16, 2011, 07:17 AM // 07:17

I intend for this team to be a HM team. I am not intending for this to be a debate, but in my opinion ST > MM in HM. While Discord teams usually include minions I find them unnecessary in this team.

I have been running a Spirit team in HM pretty much since the spirit update. The addition of 7 heroes has left me a bit perplexed. The easy answer was Discord x3, Panic, Ineptitude.The problem is that Discord prep felt slow, minions destroy ST spirits, and the Panic bar seemed to do little else then the one skill the majority of the time. Not wanting to sacrifice the shut down Panic provides I find that Fevered Dreams works as an excellent compromise and speeds up discord significantly.

The on going problem I submit to you is that I just cannot find a 7th hero build with enough synergy to satisfy me. For now I run an Ineptitude bar in the last spot but the blind and attack interrupts are basically moot thanks to Shadowsong and Fevered Dreams. I have also found tried a Psychic Instability bar with Hex Eater Signet on both Me's but heroes use of PI is lackluster to say the least. There is also some flexibility with one of the resto necros, but for lack of a better option the second healer provides some security.

hollywoodAnimal · Mar 16, 2011, 07:30 AM // 07:30

If you are looking for speed, might I suggest a Stolen Speed mesmer bar?

AndrewSX · Mar 16, 2011, 08:07 AM // 08:07

My ideas:
-Mez heroes use Fevered dreams worse than PI/Panic/Ineptitude or whatever. Mostly cause they rarely can use it to spread efficiently the awesome Daze that FD can pump.

-Use less spirits on communing Rit(max 3), raise spawning to 12 and run ST. Sogm isn't used that well, and ST is helpful to skip long downtime and cost of dissonance/disenchantement.

-You have a Blood necro and not a MM. Why not use Wells? Also, i'd slot there Blood ritual, is always a nice backup for casters.

-Even if they sucks, you could consider a meele hero for the last slot, cause no MM=poor bodyblock(spirits aren't that great as meat wall).
I suggest a Derv or a Earthshacker war.

yayowars · Mar 16, 2011, 08:44 AM // 08:44

You could use a signet mesmer. Not sure how well heroes do with the skills, I'm just throwing it out there.

Also you could try a Dervish with condition to add to the FD/Discord and overall conditions.
Skills that cause cripple would be great seeing as you don't have a snare, but of course bleed/burn/disease are great options too.

HigherMinion · Mar 16, 2011, 10:13 AM // 10:13

You have three skills to potentially deal mediocre AoE damage. At any rate, Spirits alone can kill things fast enough not to warrant Discord. Get more AoE d0mogezz.

Kelfer · Mar 16, 2011, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Dropping 1 of the disco heroes for some nice ele stuff or similar aoe .Amalagmate the last one or similar, and drop in a N/Rt, you're much better off w. a dedicated healer than w. Shelter / Union.
Adding a Ranger who feeds off Splinter weap on one of the Rits if also a possibilty. Also stick spirit rift on a Rit, causes cracked as well

Blood Bond
Hex Spell. For 3...10...12 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes are hexed with Blood Bond. Whenever an ally hits one of them with an attack, that ally gains 5...17...20 Health. If one of these foes dies while hexed, all allies adjacent to that foe are healed for 20...84...100 Health.
Note: Synergy with minions (especially melee minions) when Death Nova is not being used, since it would be counterproductive for this skill to heal minions enchanted with Death Nova.

A Barrage Ranger would greatly benefit from this, depending how 'hits' is intertrepeted.

hollywoodAnimal · Mar 16, 2011, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Considering that this is a team for hard more, I would no personally recommend rolling AoE damage (unless it is armour-ignoring). The splinter barrage could work well in terms of damage, but the build already has enough.

Like the OP said, he felt that discord prep felt like it took too long. I still advocate my use of Stolen Speed. Additionally I would include some interrupts, which this build seems to be lacking.

As per the use of Fevered Dreams, I like it. Conditions will certainly be applied to meet discord's needs, and then when switching target, the condition (and possibly hex, if you use stolen speed, or another "and also adjacent/nearby" hex) which means less prep time for discord.

HigherMinion · Mar 16, 2011, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodAnimal

As per the use of Fevered Dreams, I like it. Conditions will certainly be applied to meet discord's needs, and then when switching target, the condition (and possibly hex, if you use stolen speed, or another "and also adjacent/nearby" hex) which means less prep time for discord.

FD looks largely pointless here. You already have Enfeebling Blood and Weaken Armour. Blood Bond has same aoe hex range as Fragility, so no time saved there. Daze can only be triggered by FD re-applying, no physicals in team; not even minions. Stolen Speed can replace that slot and you have one spare still.

Gabs88 · Mar 16, 2011, 12:49 PM // 12:49

If you run the 3 normal discordbars with minions, you get a strong enough backline by itself to kick the entire soul twisting rit and add a mesmer.

Actually, add two. And in most VQ's kick the SoGM rit too, because by the time spirits are up the fight is gonna be over.

LifeInfusion · Mar 16, 2011, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Discord is terrible if you are an SoS. It's only good when you have targetted high damage (300+ i.e. from YMLAD + sin support + FH!) because without that targetted damage Discord doesn't spike out targets. Without the 500+ spike of Discord, you're better off running something with AOE.

For your bars, 9+1+3 Death =13 death, 99 damage --> 25DPS (not factoring 0.75 aftercast)

Daesu · Mar 16, 2011, 03:06 PM // 15:06

The problem with minion-less is that you are gimping your necro's SR energy which was the point of bringing a minion bomber to the team. Without it, your necro would still have energy from SR, just not as much as they would have with the minion bomber.

Unfortunately, due to a previous pvp update, SR does not trigger on spirit deaths anymore.

Gabs88 · Mar 16, 2011, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Discord is terrible if you are an SoS. It's only good when you have targetted high damage (300+ i.e. from YMLAD + sin support + FH!) because without that targetted damage Discord doesn't spike out targets. Without the 500+ spike of Discord, you're better off running something with AOE.

For your bars, 9+1+3 Death =13 death, 99 damage --> 25DPS (not factoring 0.75 aftercast)

Well, that was in the past. And I agree, I didnt use to like it at all. But the reality is that with 3+ mesmers youre allready going to have very good armor ignoring damage, 3x discord in that situation is a lot different from 3x Discord as in discordway.

Instead of thinking about discord as damagedealers. Think of them as a 2 monk + minionmaster with prot backline instead. They heal more then enough to keep you alive, and they help kill the targets blinded by ineptitude and hexed to death. Because even if you completely ignore the fact that they even cast discord, they still make up a good backline.

AcousticMeanie · Mar 16, 2011, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

My ideas:
-Mez heroes use Fevered dreams worse than PI/Panic/Ineptitude or whatever. Mostly cause they rarely can use it to spread efficiently the awesome Daze that FD can pump.

-Use less spirits on communing Rit(max 3), raise spawning to 12 and run ST. Sogm isn't used that well, and ST is helpful to skip long downtime and cost of dissonance/disenchantement.

-You have a Blood necro and not a MM. Why not use Wells? Also, i'd slot there Blood ritual, is always a nice backup for casters.

-Even if they sucks, you could consider a meele hero for the last slot, cause no MM=poor bodyblock(spirits aren't that great as meat wall).
I suggest a Derv or a Earthshacker war.

The use of FD here is actually not as bad as trying to run a whole bar based upon it. Because conditions are abundantly coming from other sources casting FD at any point is beneficial. If I were trying to run a self contained FD build I would have to agree with you but in this case I can't.

I originally ran ST over SoGM but the only real benefit I've found is the uptime of Dissonance. Considering however that I don' C-Space in HM it's not an issue as I precast most of the spirits before I pull.

I spirit wall with the SoS build and have everything else flagged at the edge of the aggro radius. Except in cases of massive AoE (think Forgewight in Slavers') smart positioning makes this not only possible but practical. That also makes the usage of wells a bit disappointing because it's likely I'm the only one in it.

Several people have mentioned using a melee hero but I fear I haven't made it clear that this team is based upon my spirit walling. Having another body up there usually just screws up positioning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodAnimal

Considering that this is a team for hard more, I would no personally recommend rolling AoE damage (unless it is armour-ignoring). The splinter barrage could work well in terms of damage, but the build already has enough.

Like the OP said, he felt that discord prep felt like it took too long. I still advocate my use of Stolen Speed. Additionally I would include some interrupts, which this build seems to be lacking.

As per the use of Fevered Dreams, I like it. Conditions will certainly be applied to meet discord's needs, and then when switching target, the condition (and possibly hex, if you use stolen speed, or another "and also adjacent/nearby" hex) which means less prep time for discord.

I have yet to try Stolen Speed but in theory it seems like it would work well. Considering however that so many of the casts are 1 second or less I wonder about it's over all effectiveness vs. Arcane Conundrum? What about adding a second Me using Shared Burden along with Clumsiness and Wandering Eye? That would allow me to add a Power drain and provide some hex removal if I slap Hex Eater Signet on both Mes. Or, I could use Shared Burden and take the conditions off the Resto's and just use that build to fuel discord freeing me to put some points back in Soul Reaping for them and still leaving me with an open spot. Thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

FD looks largely pointless here. You already have Enfeebling Blood and Weaken Armour. Blood Bond has same aoe hex range as Fragility, so no time saved there. Daze can only be triggered by FD re-applying, no physicals in team; not even minions. Stolen Speed can replace that slot and you have one spare still.

Relating to the thoughts on the above quote, what do you think about dropping FD adding Shared Burden and then possibly a Panic Bar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

If you run the 3 normal discordbars with minions, you get a strong enough backline by itself to kick the entire soul twisting rit and add a mesmer.

Actually, add two. And in most VQ's kick the SoGM rit too, because by the time spirits are up the fight is gonna be over.

If mobs are dying that quickly additional damage form the Me's would be unnecessary and you're right that the incredible defense the ST provided would be overkill. However, this team is not designed for areas I can just C-Space through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Discord is terrible if you are an SoS. It's only good when you have targetted high damage (300+ i.e. from YMLAD + sin support + FH!) because without that targetted damage Discord doesn't spike out targets. Without the 500+ spike of Discord, you're better off running something with AOE.

For your bars, 9+1+3 Death =13 death, 99 damage --> 25DPS (not factoring 0.75 aftercast)

The only reason I ran discord was to have targeted damage. While spirits are great they have a mind of their own and being able to blow up a specific mob is invaluable. If not Discord to fill this role what would you suggest? I've ran Ineptitude and E-Surge bars but they aren't strong enough to nuke down a called target. I guess the compromise is that the AoE damage will make them weak enough that the spirits will get to them faster defeating the purpose for Discord? I would like you to expand your logic a bit if you don't mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The problem with minion-less is that you are gimping your necro's SR energy which was the point of bringing a minion bomber to the team. Without it, your necro would still have energy from SR, just not as much as they would have with the minion bomber.

Unfortunately, due to a previous pvp update, SR does not trigger on spirit deaths anymore.

E-Management is not an issue.

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 16, 2011, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Run a Regular Minion Master with Shelter, not a bomber. Bone Fiends still put out stupid levels of damage, synergize at ridiculous levels with other Necros, and can easily be kept alive without having to worry about one AoE nuking your Prot, since they don't ball like Minions.

Already tested as well.

Gabs88 · Mar 17, 2011, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcousticMeanie

If mobs are dying that quickly additional damage form the Me's would be unnecessary and you're right that the incredible defense the ST provided would be overkill. However, this team is not designed for areas I can just C-Space through.

And what area would that be? Running 4 mes got me thru ToPK HM noprob, wouldnt have any problems running FoW NM, got me the Daily record in Dajkah inlet (and trust me, past 500 points its harder then any VQ in the game by miles!). DoA im not sure off, and UW is easely completable apart from Horsemen.

Daesu · Mar 17, 2011, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcousticMeanie

E-Management is not an issue.

Still, it is running a version of discordway that is less optimal than even the meta version.

Unless you intend to micro a condition inflicting skill along with your hex like the AP+YMLAD build, heroes would sometime not prep the target and therefore discord would not be able to work especially when hexes or conditions get removed.

Heroes also don't use FD properly.